OK, So At this point I have to take some offense.

[axle]

At this point, I am getting tired of people belittling all christians in one lump group.  I am saying this as a christian who has gotten kicked out of churches, both for appearance, and for telling pastors they were wrong in the middle of their sermons.  The bible does NOT say to follow the old testament laws, in fact, it says otherwise in 2 Corinthians 3:5-8:
5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Jesus himself said that two simple commandments will fulfill the law in Matthew 22:37-40:

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

And I am not going to list them, but the bible advocates in many places walking in wisdom, which wisdom is defined as:
Wisdom is knowledge, understanding, experience, discretion, and intuitive understanding, along with a capacity to apply these qualities well towards finding solutions to problems. It is the judicious and purposeful application of knowledge that is valued in society.

That does not seem to advocate blindly following a book, but instead advocates going out and learning, and putting that knowledge into action.  That is what I came to this forum specifically to do.  I may be a little abrasive in the way I ask some questions, but I am not trying to judge, merely trying to expand my understanding of things that I have not fully understood in the past.  I am also looking to the solution aspect, which may require some compromise from both sides of the argument.

I am a christian for a good reason.  I have had things happen to me in my life that cannot be explained any other way than God, either that or I am the luckiest person you will ever meet, as I should be dead by now, multiple times over.  For those people that thinks christianity is a sign of weakness, you should never make that mistake.  I spent quite alot of time homeless, a little addicted to drugs, and a decent amount in some really bad circumstances that faith and a little elbow grease got me out of.  I am not speaking for everyone who claims christianity, but for me, my faith gives me strength.

For people who want so badly not to be judged, I see alot of judging going on.  The bible says Luke 6:37 37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Regardless of religious principles, isn't this something everyone should start trying to embrace?  It does have to start somewhere, (and this does go for BOTH sides) and as my mommy taught me: "two wrongs do not make a right"

[valit]

Axle, the reasons why you are a Christian are your reasons and you don't need to explain them to us. In fact, you don't need to have reasons, that's not for us to judge and I have no issue with people who believe in God, although I don't personally.

The fact that you interpret whatever positive experience you have had as proof of the existence of God makes me wonder about how you feel about so much suffering going on in the world. However, I don't personally feel that something good or something bad happening proves anything either way so I wouldn't want to be drawn into this kind of discussion on this forum.

This forum, in fact, is meant to be used to discuss something that has not much to do with religion. Ideally it would have nothing to do with it, but some keep pulling religion into the equation and make it about that. The forum itself has so many sections for catholic, protestant, LDS, lutheran, etc perspectives that it's easy to forget that this issue is about civil law. I wish there could be something about atheist perspectives as people should start thinking in terms of freedom of religion also meaning freedom to not have a religion.

Personally I feel that the extent to which religion should be considered with the issue of prop 8 is to explain that the moment marriage started being regulated in the legal system, with tax implications and all the rest, it stopped being about religion and it became about civil society and the way people organise their lives. It seems to me that if this message got out more, people would see that there's really no reason to ban same-sex marriage.

But I tend to be very optimistic at times.

[axle]

I just keep seeing references to christians being referred to as a negative, and all being lumped into one group.  I find in insulting that people refer to christians as a whole that way.  I am not trying to draw anyone into a conversation on the validity of religion, and am definitely not trying to convert anyone, I am merely pointing out the flaws in so many people referring to christianity as a whole as ignorant bigots who are blinded by religion.  I am not about to debate the existence of God, my beliefs are personal from my own life experiences, and those have proved it in my mind.  You have not lived my life, and so have your own views.

I understand that it is not for everyone to judge, but I keep seeing posts in which alot of people are judging, and then wonder why they get judged back.
I understand exactly where you are coming from valit, but even when I said I voted yes on 8 and it had nothing to do with my religious opinions I was responded to with "Oh, I'm so tired of this excuse--and that's all it is--for forcing your neighbors to live by your religious beliefs."  Also, calling my beliefs myth and wrong without so much as adding that it is the posters view is pretty judgemental:
"All religions are very dangerous for humanity , remember NEW YORK the 11th of september , Madrid and London ...remember all the religious wars in world history .
Religions are stupids , for example in INDIA even Hindous kill christians . An islamic chief say they must kill MICKEY MOUSE because it's a satan mouse .
How people can be so stupid ? Because they spend to much time in churches ,temples , mosques ..."

I am merely pointing out what I see as flaws in peoples judgement, and letting them know that not everyone is so closeminded.  Heck, the last landladies I had where Lesbian nuns...

I don't know why part of my post is bold btw...must have been a typo.

[mike2jb]

I understand exactly where you are coming from valit, but even when I said I voted yes on 8 and it had nothing to do with my religious opinions I was responded to with "Oh, I'm so tired of this excuse--and that's all it is--for forcing your neighbors to live by your religious beliefs." 

Well, axle, I had the best of intentions to stay out of this one, but since you have taken the trouble to quote me above, I guess I must respond.

You have posted the fact that you voted "yes" on Prop 8 on a forum whose purpose is discussion of that Proposition, and even though you say that "it had nothing to do with [your] religious opinions," you have quoted verse after Bible verse, some of which you claim support your opposition to same-sex marriage and to homosexuality in general (your quotation of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans being one example).  How can you not expect that readers will call you on your claim that your vote was not based on religion?

I just keep seeing references to christians being referred to as a negative, and all being lumped into one group.  I find in insulting that people refer to christians as a whole that way. 

Me, too. 

axle, a huge number of Christians in this state, myself included, find it challenging enough to live our lives on a moral path without trying to force others to live by our beliefs, as you did when you voted for Prop 8.  We sincerely despair at being lumped into the same group as Archbishop Niederauer, Mormon President Monson, and all their cronies.

"All religions are very dangerous for humanity , remember NEW YORK the 11th of september , Madrid and London ...remember all the religious wars in world history ."

Yes of course statements like that one (by "Tetunicois") are offensive, extreme exaggeration and they lump all religions (not just Christians, by the way) unfairly together.  But when you made the decision to support Prop 8, you associated yourself with some people who are not very nice, axle--people who believe it is OK to use force to compel their neighbors--and even to compel other churches--to live by their religious beliefs.  You have in effect come into my church and into dozens of others, and have ripped apart the marriages solemnized there in the last year.  And as your reasons for doing so you have given your personal interpretation of the writings of a first century Roman Jew. 

How can anyone, then, not assume that your motivations are anything but religious at base?  How can you be surprised when you are "lumped together" with people who've done likewise?

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.  axle, I'm afraid that in voting for Prop 8 you have gotten into bed with the Archbishop and President Monson.  Of course you don't want to be "lumped together" with them, but it's hard for an observer to tell who's who when you're all in there under the covers.  Just watch out for those fleas.

[axle]

Yes of course statements like that one (by "Tetunicois") are offensive, extreme exaggeration and they lump all religions (not just Christians, by the way) unfairly together.  But when you made the decision to support Prop 8, you associated yourself with some people who are not very nice, axle--people who believe it is OK to use force to compel their neighbors--and even to compel other churches--to live by their religious beliefs.  You have in effect come into my church and into dozens of others, and have ripped apart the marriages solemnized there in the last year.  And as your reasons for doing so you have given your personal interpretation of the writings of a first century Roman Jew. 

How can anyone, then, not assume that your motivations are anything but religious at base?  How can you be surprised when you are "lumped together" with people who've done likewise?

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.  axle, I'm afraid that in voting for Prop 8 you have gotten into bed with the Archbishop and President Monson.  Of course you don't want to be "lumped together" with them, but it's hard for an observer to tell who's who when you're all in there under the covers.  Just watch out for those fleas.

I didn't say that what the bible says is the reason I voted yes on prop 8, I only said that that is what I feel the bible says about it.  I will claim that I am pretty traditional in alot of my views on certain things, and I had an extremely right wing christian conservative upbringing.  I already have stated why I voted yes, and that was simply because I feel that the terminology needs changing to keep with tradition, and a good proposition written to state that same sex unions get ALL the same rights as marriage would not bother me in the least, in fact, I gope the courts decide to do just that and DON'T send it back to a vote.  I was merely stating in the original post so that people may think twice in their posts.

[mike2jb]

I already have stated why I voted yes, and that was simply because I feel that the terminology needs changing to keep with tradition, and a good proposition written to state that same sex unions get ALL the same rights as marriage would not bother me in the least, in fact, I gope the courts decide to do just that and DON'T send it back to a vote. 

So do I.

[valit]

"All religions are very dangerous for humanity , remember NEW YORK the 11th of september , Madrid and London ...remember all the religious wars in world history ."

Yes of course statements like that one (by "Tetunicois") are offensive,

Têtuniçois is French, these guys live to shock and be offensive.
You have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.